Divorce Navigator Workshop #2: Managing The Cost Of Divorce
Today is the second session in an 11-part series on Family Law in Arizona. Here in our office we have people for the free seminar and we’re live for anybody who has questions on Facebook. If you have questions on Facebook and you wanted to be anonymous you could go ahead and send those to us in a text or email us. However, you want to get us that information.
So, last week we talked about attorneys. How to find them, how to interview them, what information to bring to your initial consultation, how to know if you have a problem with the attorney you’re working with and whether or not you should consider switching attorneys, the value of second opinions, that sort of thing.
Today, we’re going to talk about fees.
(2:26) How much does it cost to get divorced or go through a family law case? When we say divorce, it doesn’t have to necessarily be divorce. It can be a custody case or modification case. But how much does it cost?
How could you save money?
How can you do it yourself?
What are all the different options for you to utilize technology like artificial intelligence and online forms and those services; flat fee options and limited scope options.
We’re going to try and get through this by the time we’re done at 1:00 so you can go back to lunch but it may go over a little bit more.
Over the next coming weeks here are the other topics that we’re going to be discussing:
Disclosure and Discovery
RMC/prehearing conferences; return hearings and how that works
Negotiations strategies and tactics
Trial preparation and presentation
That’s kind of the procedural nuts and bolts of the case from start to finish, how to file your petition, everything like that. After that we’ll go into the substantive legal issues. The kiddo issues, the divorce legal issues, child support, spousal maintenance, alimony issues and property concerns.
(3:41) So how much does it actually cost to get divorced?
Anybody here can tell you there’s a wide range of what people pay but the average statistics is that people spend roughly $20,000 per person. That’s not true here at Modern Law. We read the numbers, and our client spends on average about $6,500 which is something that we’re really proud of and intentional about. We don’t want to charge anyone money that they don’t want to spend, we want to find the most efficient way for people to pay for divorce. But the question, the general question is how much does it cost and the general answer is it can be $40,000 on average. Some people can get divorced for as little as $500.00 or less. That largely comes from the Court fees. Those fees that the Court charges can even be waived if you qualify income wise. Massive, massive disparity in what you might spend. We’re going to talk today about how you can influence how much you need to spend and how you can be as efficient as possible with your budget. Obviously, the lowest cost divorces are going to be those where you do it on your own.
You’re not using an attorney. That’s best when you don’t have children, you don’t have property, and maybe you don’t disagree on anything. There’s really not a lot of reasons to spend money on an attorney or certified legal doc preparer at that point. Let’s say that’s not you. You’re not in the category of everything you agree on, and there’s no children or property, you’ve got some issues, but you still really want to stay on a very tight budget. Then you might want to look at midrange options like using a certified legal doc preparer here in Arizona or using an attorney on a limited scope basis which means using that attorney for some of your divorce but not all of it. For instance, getting assistance with drafting paperwork, or the trial, that sort of thing. The way I recommend you go about making this decision is by doing a cost benefit analysis and we’re going to go through these slides and talk about how to do a cost benefit analysis based on your reality.
(6:00) How much should you spend?
This is a good question to be asking yourself because the answer is not the same for everyone. You have to begin by examining what your issues are. Think about all the issues you could potentially have in your case.
Do you have child custody issues?
Do you have property issues?
Do you have debt issues?
Do you have alimony or spousal maintenance issues?
If you do, the next step is, on child custody what do we disagree about and what do we agree about? If we agree on everything in child custody, then maybe we can set that off to the side and move onto the next massive issue which might be property distribution. Maybe the two of you own a business together, or you have massive debts or there’s $400,000 in student loans, $200,000 of which you used to live on during medical school and you’re arguing over how that’s going to be split up.
The numbers here matter because if your determining that property division is a massive issue, you have this business, let’s say it’s a medical practice and you’ve got all these student loans that came from putting your spouse through medical school and you used all this money to live on and now you’ve got this medical practice, how much could that be worth is the next question. If that could be worth, in this case it could be worth a lot if your worth millions of dollars, then what is the benefit and cost of using an attorney to help you with that issue.
Obviously if we’re talking about millions of dollars on the line then the cost of using the attorney let’s say is $20,000, is going to be minimal compared to the potential benefit of reaping in millions of dollars in equity in your medical practice. If that doesn’t make sense, please let me know.
In another example let’s say we’re talking about alimony. You make $20,000 a year, and your spouse makes $400,000 a year, your spouse does not want to pay any spousal maintenance. You can’t pay your bills without it. At that point you want a cost benefit analysis. Get some information to figure out realistically how much alimony you might not be able to qualify for over what period of time. What is that total number and what is the cost going to be to secure the alimony or the spousal maintenance that I need.
(8:31) The next step is – first you’ve looked at your issues and figured out what are the issues and how much is on the line for each issue. With child custody issues it’s more difficult to assign a number but nevertheless you should go through the analysis where you’re thinking “okay, my spouse is very abusive and can’t be around my children.” The value on that is high even though it’s not a dollar amount. So, you do want to think long and hard before deciding whether or not to use an attorney. And within all of these issues are sub-issues. You can check those sub-issues out online or in Modern Law’s Book to Decode Your Divorce.
The next thing I recommend you do after you look at all of these issues, all the sub-issues and determine how much is on the line, what’s at stake, you determine what is a range of outcomes that could happen with each particular issue. Let’s say we have this family business. What is the range of options on the medical practice? Without some information from an attorney that’s probably not a great example. So, let’s think about your house instead. You can figure out pretty easily how much equity is in your house. If you bought the house during the marriage, then the house is community property. If you’ve got a $100,000 of equity in the house, what’s the potential range of outcomes there? It’s not that wide, right? We might be fighting at that point or arguing over is it $100,000? Do we take out realtor fees? Is it worth a little bit more or less? If the range of outcomes is that narrow that’s something we want to look at when your making your cost benefit analysis of how much to spend on that attorney. Likewise, if your talking about this family business and the range of outcomes on how much it could be worth could be, $100,000 or $3 million dollars the range of outcomes is massive. If we apply that to custody, let’s say you don’t really like your spouse. You don’t want your spouse to have equal parenting time, or your ex-boyfriend, you don’t want him to have equal parenting time, you want him to have 30% parenting time and he wants equal percent parenting time. Your range of outcomes is somewhere between 30% and 50%. How much is it worth to you in terms of dollars and resources in order to end up somewhere between your 30% parenting time and 50% parenting time. What I’m advocating is a pretty intentional analytical process before you decide whether or not you necessarily need an attorney or how much you want to sell on that attorney. Any questions?
(11:23) Q. It sounds like a lot to go through while your kind of emotionally spent to try and really put a number, because when you’re really emotionally there, it just seems it could be a little difficult to actually do what you’re asking.
- You bring up an excellent point because we as lawyers and what I’m conveying to you now is the very analytical non-emotional detached approach to decision-making and we don’t work that way, we just don’t. We make decisions based on emotions all the time. So how do we factor that in? How do we make that work for us? Get help, talk to family and friends, try to get assistance when going through this analysis whether it be from an attorney or somebody else that you trust that can help you kind of take a step back. The other reason that what you’re saying makes so much sense and is so important is because there is value in seeing an attorney simply for the emotional relief, which is separate from this whole cost benefit analysis. Maybe yes, you are talking about between 30-50% parenting time but the emotional relief that you’re getting from having this attorney take over your problem is worth $10,000 to you. That’s legitimate. That’s not an illegitimate thought process. It’s a logical, rational thought process. What we’re talking about is thinking about it and putting a number on it and deciding “do I have $10,000 and is that worth it to me”?
So, after that let’s say you go through this analysis and you decided what’s the potential range of outcomes and what are my issues. You’re going to assess your financial position. How much money do I have available to me and what must I do with that money? If you’re going through a divorce, you’re planning on getting a new house, you need to pack stuff, and you gotta move stuff and buy boxes. There’s a lot of other things that come when going through this process that aren’t just paying a lawyer. So, assessing your financial position is your budget and needs currently. A lot of people have other people that help them out financially through this. Parents often help out their children who are going through a divorce or Family Law custody issues. So, assessing your financial position isn’t necessarily only yours it’s the entirety of your resources.
The next thing you need to do is protect yourself financially and emotionally. Move out sooner rather than later. How do I make sure I’m protected? Protecting yourself financially means not spending too much money. If you cannot afford to go spend $10,000 on an attorney because you need to move you have nowhere to live, then by all means don’t do it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people in my office say things like “I don’t have any money” or “I’m not getting any money for spousal maintenance” and I want, you to file something and you don’t have money to pay your rent, your telling me you’re going to get kicked out of your house and you want to pay me, this is not a good use of your resources. So, protecting yourself financially and emotionally means making analytical decisions based on that as well.
Decide what is your best and your worst-case scenario and what can you live with?
If we go back to the custody situation you’re like “okay, I really want my ex to have the kids 30% of the time”. He really wants 50% of the time. Can you live with your 50% of the time? Can your kids live with 30%? How bad is it? Before you decided to go spend your $10,000 or your $20,000 let’s really think about best case, worst-case and what could you live with.
Next, build your support team.
Your support team, this is your legal team but also maybe your friends, your family and who are you surrounding yourself with? Who are your friends that you are allowing in your inner circle right now because they may not be the same friends that you party with on Friday nights.
You’ve gone through this exercise and now we are determining what are the costs? How am I going to pay for it?
This question comes out to two things: What are your representation options, and what are your funding options. We talked a little bit about this at first but let’s dive into them a little bit more.
You’ve got a DIY or paralegal option. That is your going to the courthouse and your filling out the forms yourself or your seeing a certified legal doc preparer who helps you do the forms.
The other option you got is going online, to a place like Legal Zoom or using AccessLegalDocs.com (now iDoOver.life) which is our sister company Access Legal which has online options.
Then you’ve got an alternative use for attorneys where your using them on a limited scope project basis but not handing over a retainer and saying do everything.
And then, the traditional approach is what we do most often and it’s kind of the full-service concierge, wrap you in a bubble, take care of all your problems approach. And all of these have pros and cons. I think we just need to be realistic about what those are and who you are. Part of this analysis is you going through deciding whether or not you want to do it yourself and whether or not its worth it to you. But, doing it yourself is possible.
People do it all the time. Eighty to ninety percent of people at some point or another in their Family Law case are pro per in Arizona or pro se in every other state which means your doing things yourself. Sometimes it works out just great, other times it is literally disastrous. I talked the last time about the person who did her own divorce and she was fairly happy with the outcome except for they didn’t address the $200,000 that was owed to the IRS or other massive holes because they had a business and they didn’t talk about how the payout would work and the interest. The bottom line is if she had done this analysis and truly determined what is potentially at risk and have people around her help her do the analysis, she may have made a different decision about getting a little bit advice going through that.
(17:57) Now, can you do it yourself? These are some questions you can ask yourself to determine if you’re a good candidate to do it yourself.
Are you on time?
Do you meet deadlines? Are you someone who has a hard time keeping track of deadlines and extra projects or are you super type A and everything is done, and everything is right? Those people tend to do a better job for themselves than people who are more type B who are like “Oh, I’m getting it done if I can.”
Do you have the time to make this happen? What position are you in right now as far as time and research available to you?
- If I do it myself is the Judge going to hold me as accountable on these things if I mess up since I don’t have an attorney?
- The rules say yes. The rules say the pro per litigant should be held to the exact same standards as an attorney. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on the Judge, depends on the day, depends on the issue. So, that’s a terrible answer to your question but that’s the truth.
Do you do your own taxes? Some people can file their own taxes and do a fantastic job and the forms that we’re doing in family court are not unlike the forms that you’re doing when your filling out forms that go to the IRS. So that’s something you need to ask yourself.
Do you keep your cool under pressure? Do you feel okay speaking in front of people and articulating yourself on something that is pretty darn emotional?
Where are you at emotionally? Assess yourself. Truly assess yourself before you decide if you’re a good candidate to do it yourself.
(19:34) Red Flags
If you are one of these people that believes that rules are for other people but really don’t belong to you or you think your more of the person whose thinking about how it should be than how it is, you are going to be disappointed.
Are you somebody that flies off the handle?
Are you somebody who doesn’t like speaking in public or has a hard time articulating yourself and would shut down?
Do you have a hard time talking to your ex or are you guys on fairly good terms where your able to come to some agreements with yourselves?
These are all things you should be considering when making this decision.
(20:09) You can always start out with trying free or low-cost resources and then decide along the way, that this isn’t working. You don’t have to have the answers all today and you can change your mind. Do not feel you are locked into any particular attorney or any particular course of events. As your litigation or your case goes forward your going to want to be thinking about pros and cons and what’s best for you today, given chances in your situation.
If your divorce is complicated, it involves property issues, business issues or difficult circumstances with custody, you probably need to at least see an attorney at some point. You would benefit from the advice that you would get from an experienced practitioner. So even if you decide that you’re not going to end up using an attorney for everything, please go see somebody at some point.
What can you expect to spend on an attorney? Typical attorney fees are anywhere between $250 – $350 an hour on average. You will find attorneys who charge less, you will find attorneys who charge more. Paralegals are typically between $80 an hour to $180 an hour and administrative costs or charges are usually between $60 to $100 an hour. Again, those are averages. What’s important is that you look and understand what the financial arrangement is with the attorney you are working with. They will most likely give you a written fee agreement and you’re going to want to take the time to go through that carefully to understand what it is that you’re doing and spending. Now, with limited scope representation you are paying only for what you need and the projects that you have contracted for. This can be challenging because people who end up with limited scope representation don’t always know that they’ve signed up for limited scope representation and many times people who have entered into limited scope representation agreements believe things are included that are not or the attorney and the client haven’t come to a very clear understanding about what’s included and what isn’t. So, the most important thing in my mind if your using limited scope representation which by the way is a fantastic option for many, many people, and something to really consider, but what’s most important here is to make sure you understand what’s included and what isn’t. Be prepared to do some of the work yourself. If you think your attorney is going to answer all your questions and be available for you night and day, do whatever needs to be done on your case, you don’t have a limited scope representation agreement. So, really think about that if this is the choice that you’ve made, or this is the option that the attorneys presented to you.
Your costs can be reduced. They aren’t necessarily reduced. That depends on how much you hire your attorney to do for you. But they are a little bit more set and a bit more predictable which is a great thing.
- Would it be in my best interest to track deadlines on a limited scope basis just to ensure that I’m not missing things? If there’s any confusion in between what is my responsibility and what I’ve hired an attorney on a limited scope basis responsibility to do?
- Unless that limited scope agreement says I will track all the deadlines for you and tell you about them then yes that is on you, the client. You the pro se litigant. And at the same time, I would tell any attorney whose providing limited scope representation that you should be tracking deadlines and communicating. But just to protect yourself, yes, that is something you should absolutely do.
(24:00) Flat Fee Divorce Options are a little bit different than limited scope options sort of. Usually the flat fee divorce option is like a limited scope but not really. So, you’ve got predictable fees, and you know what your spending and the contract is that they’re going to do it all for you. Even here you’re going to want to really outline the parameters of what’s included and what isn’t, because what if somebody files for an Order of Protection? It’s kind of related to your divorce but, it’s not in your divorce. What if somebody files an appeal, not related to the divorce, not in your divorce. There’s still a lot of “what ifs” that may or may not be covered so the most important thing here is communication.
With our particular fee agreement, our fee agreement that we use most of the time has flat fee pieces built into it so that you know exactly when we go to Court for a one-hour hearing this is how much you’re going to spend for that, regardless of whether or not the hearing goes over, goes under, this is the cost. So, we have as many flat fee options built into our fee agreement as possible which gives people the ability to pay hourly for things like communication and meetings you may need or extras. Things that come up like we were just talking about where the Appeal comes up or the Order of Protection comes up and it doesn’t mean you have to hire us to do it, but you have the option and you know the terms because the fee agreement also has the flat fee stuff built in.
How can you pay for your attorney?
There’s a lot of ways to pay for attorneys. People can use cash or savings. People can take money out of their retirement accounts, people can use credit cards, people can borrow money from family, friends or third-party funding agencies they do exist, and we know quite a few clients who use them. Other people will take a class and take up some student loans. There’s a lot of ways. We’ve had clients that have borrowed from churches. There’s a lot of ways people can fund whatever their particular project is.
What are some other ways, that you, if you’re working with an attorney to keep your cost down?
Be disciplined in your communications. Do not reach out to your attorney every time you have a thought. Save up your thoughts and remember when we talked about gathering resources back in the beginning, another exercise that you can go to would be thinking about what are friend questions and what are attorney questions. The line isn’t always clear. I also talked last week about how learning about somebody’s sex life lead to an annulment instead of divorce and saved all this money. I’m giving you contradictory information here I understand that. But anyway, being disciplined in your communications – don’t reach out every five minutes, save them up for maybe a weekly email. Getting organized. People spend so much money they don’t have to spend by not being organized and not having their paperwork together. Get help. If you are not an organized person, it is okay. Not everyone is super organized. If you are not an organized person, then who are your friends that are super organized who can help you because they are going to be cheaper than attorneys or paralegals at getting your stuff organized and we will tell you exactly what you need to organize. And if you’re not working with us, then you can still buy Decoding a Divorce, or you can come by the office and we will give you one and it will tell you exactly what you need to get organized.
Remember your Objectives.
Remember the exercise you went through at the beginning of this little talk about what are my issues and what are the potential outcomes and what could I live with. Remembering those objectives, writing them down if you need to, posting them in your bathroom, will help you make good decisions based on what is actually important to you, not the moment, the current fight or the flying off the handle.
- If you sit down and do this cost benefit analysis and you look at all the factors and you determine that you probably really don’t need an attorney, there’s not going to be many issues, we’re semi-communicative. Is it still possible for things to blow up where you can get an attorney later?
- Yes. Absolutely. I think that’s a great point. Let’s say you’re at the beginning of your divorce and you and your spouse work well together, by all means start there and understand if things change along the way you always have options.
- What can I do if my ex isn’t represented but I’m getting ready to get represented but I know that as soon as he finds out he’s going to just start trying to run up my bill. I do have limited funds, and I know I need help. I’ve done this analysis, and I’m not capable of representing myself efficiently or effectively like what can I do to try to protect myself from that?
- That does happen. There are opposing parties who understand that you as the client get billed every time they contact your lawyer and they will literally harass your lawyer. You need to ask your lawyer to help protect you. There are ways that I’ve done that in the past. At one point I had an opposing party that was literally harassing me to get to his wife and there was an Order of Protection in place and he knew exactly what he was doing, and I knew exactly what he was doing. At one point I told him, I just called him out on it, and said “you are trying to use me to harass your wife and I will not tolerate it for a moment, and if you don’t stop I’ll file an injunction against harassment myself. You can ask that that person only communicate in writing. You can block their email address. Ask your lawyer to help you out. Your lawyer should come up with creative ways to make sure that that doesn’t happen, but it is a great question.
- So at this point me and my husband, it appears that we’ve reached agreements on everything, but just to ensure that I’m not missing anything would you recommend that maybe, I mean I don’t have $6,500 to pay an attorney to help walk me through this, but because I believe that we’re in agreement with everything would you still recommend that maybe I pay for a consult with an attorney just have a meeting of the minds and just make sure I’m not missing anything and that I’m set up for what’s best?
- Absolutely. Your situation is so common. You think you’ve got everything worked out. You guys have designed your parenting plan, come in show it to us and then we say well wait what are you doing about summer vacation and what are you doing about transportation. Where is transportation happening? Our job is to issue spot and to help make suggestions based on what’s worked and what blows up for other people. For instance, in your situation, people will come and say we don’t need to be specific in our parenting plan because we agree on everything. The parenting plan is for when you don’t. When your ex marries this woman that you hate, and she has her own kids and she wants to run the show. That is why we take this time to build a really proactive detailed parenting plan in advance that addresses as many issues as possible. So yes. Even if you agree on anything please come see us and let us help you even if its only for an hour.
We saw a bunch of stories that came in throughout the week if you can pull those up.
(32:15) Q. My wife moved out and stopped contributing to our bills. I don’t make enough to pay for everything myself. Can she do that? Isn’t she responsible for contributing so that we can continue the lifestyle we established during the marriage? She can’t just refuse to pay for things we’ve always done. My daughter has certain piano, and my son has football. But she decided not to pay for that anymore. What can I do?
- This was a written question, so I can’t ask any follow-up questions, but you got a couple, living together, they have a certain established lifestyle, one spouse moves out, they are theoretically they have their own expenses now and the other spouse has been left with all the community bills, the mortgage, utilities, everything, what can you do? You need to file for divorce because until you file for divorce the court has no jurisdiction over your marriage or life. So, you can pretty much do anything you want to while your married. You guys can run your marriage how you want to. You can have separate bank accounts, have one spouse pay for everything and the other spouse take the money and gamble it and buy make-up, whatever. It doesn’t matter. If you want the Court to get involved to start issuing orders for anything you have to file for divorce. Then what you can do after that is file a Motion for Temporary Orders and ask for temporary support or temporary order that says who’s going to pay what bills because you need to make sure that all those community bills get paid.
The second part of that question had to do with certain expenses for the children. Temporary child support is also something you can and should file for. Child support is figured out with a calculator. Both incomes go in, certain expenses go in and then there’s child support number spit out and it’s not optional. Its money that’s owed for the kids. Are you going to be able to maintain the exact lifestyle that you did while you were married? Probably not. I met very few people who were able to have the exact lifestyle they had when they were married, when their also separated especially when their going through the divorce. The process of divorce is expensive, and it really taps into your resources and things usually have to change or people end up in massive amounts of debt. So, you may be entitled to temporary spousal maintenance. You’re not likely entitled to maintain the exact style of living you had when everyone lived in one house.
(35:25) Q. For several years we didn’t choose to vaccinate the kids. Now I’d like to have them vaccinated. Do I need permission? Would a judge require my kids to be vaccinated because my wife is refusing to vaccinate?
- We’ve had this come up before. Kiley, do you want to tackle this one? Yeah, this is kind of a messy topic. A lot of times it’s a “roll the dice” and depends on what Judge you get. If you’re on the side of not vaccinating your probably going to have a much tougher battle to win this in Court. If your going to choose to fight this I recommend giving a number of professionals, whether its doctors or scientists, anyone who can come in to back up your claims because it is going to be a really, really tough one for you to win on.
- The other thing that I think matters is, is this a modification or is this the first time coming before the Judge? Do we have an agreement in place that shows that the parents agreed not to vaccinate? Then the other question is, is there a legal decision-making order in place? Arizona has done away with the term custody which is sort of confusing because the other 49 states use the word custody. The reason Arizona moved away from it was because custody means two things. It means physical custody – where are the children and it means who makes the decisions. So, Arizona goes “well we’re not going to call it custody, we’re going to say that we‘ve got parenting time or we’ve got legal decision-making. Legal decision-making only covers four major things: medical decisions, school decisions, religious decisions and personal care decisions. And I don’t know exactly what personal care decisions are, maybe their like braces and piercings, hair, I don’t know, maybe how people dress or social media. I don’t know. If there’s a legal decision-making order and one parent has the final decision-making ability on medical, they will probably have the ability to decide whether or not those children are vaccinated or if one parent has sole legal decision-making they will probably be able to make that decision.
- (Kiley) Sometimes I’ve seen some parents that can come up with creative solutions to this too. They might agree that only certain vaccinations are going to happen or the other parents going to get to do some sort of protocol whether its certain vitamins or things like that they take before or after vaccinations. So, there’s different ways both parents can at least benefit from this a little bit.
- Yeah. The other thing I’ve seen sometimes with medical issues is parents might have an agreement that when there’s a disagreement on medical issues they’ll defer to their doctor that they chose together. We got to get creative because these are issues that I never like to take in front of a Judge.
- Say there was an order in place that Dad gets to be the final decision and he wants to vaccinate but Mom doesn’t. If Mom catches wind of that and she files for a modification does that mean that Dad can’t vaccinate? Does that put any hold on his ability to do it?
- It really doesn’t. Unless you can go get some emergency Order. Let’s say for example, Mom who is a real fan of plastic surgery decides to get her 16-year-old a cosmetic breast reduction and lift. I could see that situation where Dad might be able to go in and say “Whoa, I need an emergency Order preventing this until we can discuss this further.”
- (Kiley) I think it might work especially when you’re dealing with significant surgeries and things like that where if its going to be a vaccination its probably not going to impact them that much but if their going to be put under and things like that I think the Court has to consider that.
- Actually, we did have a case like that once. We had a little boy, and the Dad was taking him to get a feeding tube and we tried to get an emergency Order preventing the surgery because Mom didn’t think he needed this feeding tube. But I don’t remember what happened.
- (Kiley) It was a little bit after that. He had the feeding tube in him, but we did get an emergency Order and they ended up taking the kid from Dad and giving the kid to Mom because he had not consulted her about getting the feeding tube in or anything like that.
- Medical issues are so interesting. It’s a great question. It absolutely comes up.
We only have a few minutes. Any other questions here or that came in last week? Nope. We will see you in a few weeks.